Curse

rebirthofdragon · Jul 19, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Where are you getting your numbers from? At 14 Strength with a hammer, the armor penetration from Str only adds 12+ damage. It's gonna be alot less in PvE when stuff with high armor reduces that damage. That, and the damage added will be less when using a Spear. Even bigger, you're losing the damage from auto-attacking. Remember that the AP from Str applies to Attack Skills only. A War with a spear is just a bootleg replacement.

Here's my assumptions for testing (not consider probability of crits):

[build prof=W/P Str=12+1+3 Spear=12][enduring harmony]["for great justice!"][Flail]["save yourselves!"][mighty throw][blazing spear][no skill][no skill][/build]
[build prof=P/W Lead=12+1 Spear=12+1+3]["they're on fire!"][Focused anger][Aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"][mighty throw][blazing spear][no skill][no skill][/build]

I Assume you'd be spamming one of the two spear attacks and using a plain max spear (14-27), against an opponent with X armor.

Using [Mighty Throw]:

For the War, damage rating would be (5*12)=60, armor rating would be X(.84), damage shift=34
For the Para, damage rating would be (5*12)+(2*4)=68, damage rating would be X, damage shift=42

For the War,
min damage would be 14*2^((60-.84X)/40)+34 = (14*2^(60/40))/(2^(.84X/40))+34 = 39.598/(2^(.021X))+34
max damage would be 27*2^((60-.84X)/40)+34 = (27*2^(60/40))/(2^(.84X/40))+34 = 76.358/(2^(.021X))+34

For the Para,
min damage would be 14*2^((68-X)/40)+42 = (14*2^(68/40))/(2^(X/40))+42 = 45.486/(2^(.025X))+42
max damage would be 27*2^((68-X)/40)+42 = (27*2^(68/40))/(2^(X/40))+42 = 87.723/(2^(.025X))+42

Assuming 60 armor, damage per activation time is:
War = 50-65
Para = 58-73

Taking IASes into account makes it:
War = 75-98
Para = 77-97

So, for Mighty Throw, the Para's damage is only a tiny bit better than the War's, due largely to the bonus damage given by the skill. The sweet spot is around 70 armor, when average damage is closest (.01). Otherwise, paras deal .94 more on average at 120 armor.

Using [Blazing Spear] (discounting burning, as it lasts 3 seconds at both 12 and 16):

For the War,
min damage would be 14*2^((60-.84X)/40)+21 = (14*2^(60/40))/(2^(.84X/40))+21 = 39.598/(2^(.021X))+21
max damage would be 27*2^((60-.84X)/40)+21 = (27*2^(60/40))/(2^(.84X/40))+21 = 76.358/(2^(.021X))+21

For the Para,
min damage would be 14*2^((68-X)/40)+26 = (14*2^(68/40))/(2^(X/40))+26 = 45.486/(2^(.025X))+26
max damage would be 27*2^((68-X)/40)+26 = (27*2^(68/40))/(2^(X/40))+26 = 87.723/(2^(.025X))+26

Assuming 60 armor, damage per activation time is:
War = 37-52
Para = 42-57

Taking IASes into account makes it:
War = 56-79
Para = 56-76

So, for Blazing Spear, the Warrior expects to do an average of about 1.5 damage more, with the sweet spot, again, at 70 armor.

Though this report is not without flaws, I think it shows quite clearly that a warrior throwing a spear will do very close to the same damage a paragon does. Some things not considered are that the warrior will be slowed down using Flail and that the paragon would have fared much better using:
[build prof=P/W Lead=12+1 Spear=12+1+3][Soldier's Fury][Enduring harmony]["For Great Justice!"]["save yourselves!"][mighty throw][blazing spear][no skill][no skill][/build]
However, in this case, the paragon MUST have an elite skill, which leaves the warrior other ways to gain an advantage (i.e. Deep Wound from Cruel Spear). Even on this case, the warrior would have 80+20(insignia)=100 armor compared to that paragon's 80+10(insignia)=90 armor.

Based on this, I beleive that the primary benefit of a Paragon primary is TNTF!, without which they would be slightly inferior to Warrior primaries in PvE.

glountz · Jul 19, 2008, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Warriors and Paragons are not used for the same goal. I personnally use both.
Dragon slash is a godly DPS, and will charge Headbutt in no time. While the para will maintain TNTF! longer, the perma knocklock from the DSlasher is very sweet, especially on HM bosses.
Use both if you are two players. You can use TNTF on a warrior on recharge also provided you have some energy pool (use some consumable to raise your max mana) to use it in first place and a zealous sword.

Shaz · Jul 19, 2008, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Based on this, I beleive that the primary benefit of a Paragon primary is TNTF!, without which they would be slightly inferior to Warrior primaries in PvE.

Good job on crunching the number. Though anyone who run SY won't run Mighty Throw. What the paragon has over the warrior is infinite energy and AR, therefore he can use energy based attack skills and won't cut into the adrenaline pool of SY so SY is up more often. So even without TNTF, a warrior using spear is no where near a Paragon in term of effectiveness. It's fun for those who like to do weird build but no where near as effective.

Racthoh · Jul 19, 2008, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Based on this, I beleive that the primary benefit of a Paragon primary is TNTF!, without which they would be slightly inferior to Warrior primaries in PvE.

However when we factor in how PvE plays out as well as the importance of positioning the paragon pushes well out in front. Melee weapon wielding allies will get hit with the physical hate (hexes, blind, weakness) while the paragon would stay clean (until said hate recharges and has not been removed from the first target). Take it another step into Hard Mode where enemies kite faster than a warrior moves. The spear allows the paragon to constantly attack anything in earshot range, and change targets on the fly. A warrior on the other hand has to move to find a new target.

Also Mighty Throw is horrible. It slows your adrenaline gain significantly and will barely add any damage compared to simple auto attacks.

Personal experience with both a DSlash warrior and an SY gon has taught me that the paragon plays every aspect in a superior manner. As such I generally prefer warriors play an Earthshaker hammer bar; the utility of KD locks is sexy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Where are you getting your numbers from? At 14 Strength with a hammer, the armor penetration from Str only adds 12+ damage.

Strength at best adds something like 2-4 damage. Wild Blow a test dummy with 0 strength and then 12 strength to see the small addition.

Tyla · Jul 19, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Yet you're still only looking at damage. The usual Imbagon build usually consists of 4 skills:

[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger]

Now, we have infinite energy here, an IAS that lasts forever and incredibly powerful defense. I believe a build usually used on the Imbagon is as followed:

[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][ebon battle standard of honor][swift javelin][vicious attack][signet of return]

You don't see any adrenaline skills other than SY. Why? The adrenaline generating the energy coming from SY isn't disturbed whatsoever, so you have the energy management to spam the majority of your bar on recharge. You gain 6 energy every 4 seconds, not counting zealous mods or regeneration. Either way, the last 3 skills can be replaced with practically anything. The energy gain can fuel almost anything.

PS: Why are you using a sub-par attack skill and a skill that probably wouldn't be on anything other than a D/P blindbot and a R/P spearchucker?

Oh yeah, superios runes suck.

odly · Jul 20, 2008, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Yet you're still only looking at damage. The usual Imbagon build usually consists of 4 skills:

[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger]

Now, we have infinite energy here, an IAS that lasts forever and incredibly powerful defense. I believe a build usually used on the Imbagon is as followed:

[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][ebon battle standard of honor][swift javelin][vicious attack][signet of return]

You don't see any adrenaline skills other than SY. Why? The adrenaline generating the energy coming from SY isn't disturbed whatsoever, so you have the energy management to spam the majority of your bar on recharge. You gain 6 energy every 4 seconds, not counting zealous mods or regeneration. Either way, the last 3 skills can be replaced with practically anything. The energy gain can fuel almost anything.

PS: Why are you using a sub-par attack skill and a skill that probably wouldn't be on anything other than a D/P blindbot and a R/P spearchucker?

Oh yeah, superios runes suck.

Unless you're using essence of celerity you'll be using For great Justice for permanent double adrenalin (covering the downtime of focused anger and helping you to start up anggresive refrain with a shout since aggresive + tnft costs too much as a starter.).

[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger]["For great justice"] (basic build)

[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][ebon battle standard of honor][swift javelin][vicious attack]["For great justice"] (most common full build when you have an orders spammer.)

The 3 remaining skills do depend a bit on area and team composition.

Bobby2 · Jul 20, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

However when we factor in how PvE plays out as well as the importance of positioning the paragon pushes well out in front. Melee weapon wielding allies will get hit with the physical hate (hexes, blind, weakness) while the paragon would stay clean (until said hate recharges and has not been removed from the first target). Take it another step into Hard Mode where enemies kite faster than a warrior moves. The spear allows the paragon to constantly attack anything in earshot range, and change targets on the fly. A warrior on the other hand has to move to find a new target.

woot woot we discussing Spear chucking Wars rite?

My Lipgloss is Cool · Jul 21, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

As far as straight up auto-attacking goes, yes the warrior and the para will be close together. When they're using the same skills, yes, they'll be close together. But here's the problem; Warriors have an energy pool (puddle?), while paras have more energy than you can spend (have you ever tried to run out of energy on an imbagon? It's not easy to do). So, while paras could afford 20 energy attacks, and never have down time, warriors don't have the same energy management. Two energy regen, and a primary attribute that doesn't help with energy forces Warriors to turn to adren based skills. But as you're using those to try and up your DPS, or using Flail for an IAS (Oh, you have to reapply your IAS, and it costs adren?) you're taking adren away from SY!, which is the point of your existance with these builds.

Then you can take into account that your IAG (Increased Adren Gain?) not being perma.

THEN you can take into account that the para has TNtF.

So...not needing other adren skills, perma-IAG(?), perma-IAS, same autoattacking DPS, perma-SY!, AND 50% TNtF?
The Winner; Paragon

But, most importantly, Imbagon sounds a hell of a lot better than imbarrior.

MLiC

Cathode_Reborn · Jul 22, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Though this report is not without flaws, I think it shows quite clearly that a warrior throwing a spear will do very close to the same damage a paragon does. Some things not considered are that the warrior will be slowed down using Flail and that the paragon would have fared much better using:
[build prof=P/W Lead=12+1 Spear=12+1+3][Soldier's Fury][Enduring harmony]["For Great Justice!"]["save yourselves!"][mighty throw][blazing spear][no skill][no skill][/build]

Not sure where you got your numbers from, but a simple screenshot from the Master of Damage guy in the Namesless Isle would've been faster and probably have more accurate results. And why Mightly Throw? No one uses that. Also no point in using Soldier's Fury when Aggressive Refrain is there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

However, in this case, the paragon MUST have an elite skill, which leaves the warrior other ways to gain an advantage (i.e. Deep Wound from Cruel Spear). Even on this case, the warrior would have 80+20(insignia)=100 armor compared to that paragon's 80+10(insignia)=90 armor.

A para has 80 armor, -20 from AR, add 16, another 10+ from insigs, and you got 86 armor. If your healers are having trouble keeping a ranged player with 86 armor alive, then obviously they're not very good. Wars should be making use of their extra armor by being in the frontline, rather than being a subpar spearchucker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Based on this, I beleive that the primary benefit of a Paragon primary is TNTF!, without which they would be slightly inferior to Warrior primaries in PvE.

You forgot that they're alot better at keeping "SY" up. If you had real experience with a Paragon, you wouldn't try to compare them, and those bars wouldn't be using bad skills. Their difference in DPS may not be far apart from eachother, but the ability to use "TNTF" and spam "SY" is the biggest thing. So why do people use spear wars? It's just somethin to run when they get tired of being in melee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][ebon battle standard of honor][swift javelin][vicious attack]["For great justice"] (most common full build when you have an orders spammer.)

I wouldn't use Vicious Attack without "gfte" - It's not very likely to crit, and that chance gets reduced even more against lvl20+ enemies in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Strength at best adds something like 2-4 damage. Wild Blow a test dummy with 0 strength and then 12 strength to see the small addition.

Against 60al, it should be abit more than that. At 14str, 15ham, my hammer crits for 76, and 88 with Dev hammer. Still pretty bad though....only runnin 14str for the breakpoint E-charge.

cellardweller · Jul 22, 2008, 01:39 AM // 01:39

I'm going to go against the grain and say that I prefer the DS/SY to the imbagon because of the tactical versatility that it offers.

The strength of the imbagon is that it provides good damage while giving stronger 24/7 party wide damage reduction. Whilst this is nice on paper, it just isn't necisary most of the time. The large majority of fights I'm in consists of cornerblocked enemies being held adjacent to maximise mark of pain/splinter weapon damage. In these situations, SY/TNTF just isn't necisarry as the corner blocker is taking the lions share of the damage which is completely negated thanks to skills like [protective spirit], [spirit bond] and [shield of absorption].

The DS/SY'er on the other hand has many more options available to them depending on the sitation. In the above situation they can maximise the overall DPS and splinter weapon damage by using the [Dragon slash]->[whirlwind attack]->[dragon slash]->[whirlwind attack] sequence. In situations where the the fight is a mess, they can maintain comparable amounts of party support via [Dragon slash]->[save yourselves]->[dragon slash]->[save yourselves]. When there a single target that needs to be shut down they can use [Dragon slash]->[brawling headbutt]->[dragon slash]->[brawling headbutt] and when they just want to kill whatever is infront of them they can stick to [Dragon slash]->[dragon slash].

In normal mode the imbagon has the advantage of having constant adrenalin boost, but in hard mode this advantage goes away because the 30second up/15 second down cycle of EH+FJG matches the 30seconds kill/15seconds pick up loot and move to next group cycle that most HM fights have.

My Lipgloss is Cool · Jul 22, 2008, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

in hard mode this advantage goes away because the 30second up/15 second down cycle of EH+FJG matches the 30seconds kill/15seconds pick up loot and move to next group cycle that most HM fights have.

But it's the fights that ARE more than 30 seconds when you really need constant SY!

Also, as the warrior, you're probably running in first. Enjoy being the first target for all the enemies' blind and anti-melee hexes.

Now, I'm not saying DS/SY isn't awesome; it is. Nothing makes me smile more than knocklocks and lots of AoE that causes more AoE (Whirlwind triggering Splinter/MoP) but if your hypothetical team is killing HM mobs in ~30 seconds, then they have plenty of damage even without the DS warrior. And if there's already plenty of damage, I'd prefer a moderate drop in DPS for reliability of keeping SY up over having 'perma' SY for 2/3 of the time and more (unnecessary) DPS.

cellardweller · Jul 22, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by My Lipgloss is Cool

But it's the fights that ARE more than 30 seconds when you really need constant SY!

Also, as the warrior, you're probably running in first. Enjoy being the first target for all the enemies' blind and anti-melee hexes.

Now, I'm not saying DS/SY isn't awesome; it is. Nothing makes me smile more than knocklocks and lots of AoE that causes more AoE (Whirlwind triggering Splinter/MoP) but if your hypothetical team is killing HM mobs in ~30 seconds, then they have plenty of damage even without the DS warrior. And if there's already plenty of damage, I'd prefer a moderate drop in DPS for reliability of keeping SY up over having 'perma' SY for 2/3 of the time and more (unnecessary) DPS.

I'm a firm believer that its better to take an extra 30 seconds on 1 difficult fights that to take an extra 1-2 seconds on the 100 easy fights. I'm also not saying that an imbagon isn't great - If I'm going to have a warrior and a para in my team its going to be an imbagon + a earth shaker or Tripple chopper, but if I had to choose between an imbagon or a ds'er to fill out an otherwise meleeless team, I'm going to choose the warrior every time.

rebirthofdragon · Jul 22, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Against 60al, it should be abit more than that. At 14str, 15ham, my hammer crits for 76, and 88 with Dev hammer. Still pretty bad though....only runnin 14str for the breakpoint E-charge.

Actually, strength (AP) adds surprisingly little damage. With hammer mastery 14 and 13 STR, you only gain 3.17 dmg vs AL60, 3.04 vs AL80, and 2.74 vs AL 100. That's why vamp is so much better than sundering; it adds roughly 3x as much damage per hit, on average.

Cathode_Reborn · Jul 22, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

The advantage a Para has over a War's DPS is the simple fact that they're ranged. While the war is moving onto his next target, a Para is still hitting stuff and can switch targets easily if they need to. Wars have alot more armor-ignoring damage, thanks to D-slash.....Spear damage isn't so hot when you're barely doing about 30 damage with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Actually, strength (AP) adds surprisingly little damage. With hammer mastery 14 and 13 STR, you only gain 3.17 dmg vs AL60, 3.04 vs AL80, and 2.74 vs AL 100. That's why vamp is so much better than sundering; it adds roughly 3x as much damage per hit, on average.

I'm gettin my numbers from countless PvP matches. 15 ham, 14 str. I hit for 76 against 60al. Dev hits for 88 dmg. If the sundering kicks in (too lazy to use vamp, not enough wep sets), it turns into 108. I'm not trying to argue that it's good, but it's free damage. Of course I'd never spec into it just for that damage since it's very minor and gets reduced so easily, especially in PvE. The amount of stuff in PvE with unusually high armor is the main thing discouraged me from using both my Para or War often.....Steelfang Slash nerf is no fun either

Gaia_Hunter · Jul 22, 2008, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

Unless you're using essence of celerity you'll be using For great Justice for permanent double adrenalin (covering the downtime of focused anger and helping you to start up anggresive refrain with a shout since aggresive + tnft costs too much as a starter.).

[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger]["For great justice"] (basic build)

[aggressive refrain]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][ebon battle standard of honor][swift javelin][vicious attack]["For great justice"] (most common full build when you have an orders spammer.)

The 3 remaining skills do depend a bit on area and team composition.

If someone else (like a second paragon) can run the standard use [Spear of fury]. That with a condition (enfeebling blood from a necro or anthem of weakness on u or on second para) will charge Save yourselves ASAP.

Save yourselves doesn't reduce armor ignoring damage, including those from skill attacks +bonus damage nor life steal. TNTF reduces armor ignoring damage but not life steal.

In prophecies/factions and most nightfall, nm or hm, SY just reduces the hassle of pulling and body blocking every time. Probably not very challenging but very nice fo TS chat while playing :P. In elite NF and Gwen and HM there, SY makes it easier (slavers exile without it and h/h is quite annoying) but isn't the god mode people like to advertise

My Lipgloss is Cool · Jul 22, 2008, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'm a firm believer that its better to take an extra 30 seconds on 1 difficult fights that to take an extra 1-2 seconds on the 100 easy fights.

Then wouldn't you agree that it's better to take an extra 1-2 seconds on easy fights and be prepared for harder fights, than spend 2 minutes rezzing and getting ready to move on (with DP) because halfway through a hard/long fight, the SY! stopped and someone (everyone?) died?

cellardweller · Jul 22, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by My Lipgloss is Cool

Then wouldn't you agree that it's better to take an extra 1-2 seconds on easy fights and be prepared for harder fights, than spend 2 minutes rezzing and getting ready to move on (with DP) because halfway through a hard/long fight, the SY! stopped and someone (everyone?) died?

Clearly we're operating in different worlds with different parameters so our which is why we come to differing conclusions - I can't say if thats a factor of our play styles or the people we play with. In your world a death or two seems to quadruple your kill time where as it will only add 5-30 seconds and I have found that wipes while running either a dslasher or imbagon are unheard of outside of places like Shards HM or Gloom HM that are specifically designed to counter both builds.

My Lipgloss is Cool · Jul 22, 2008, 12:50 PM // 12:50

On my paragon, I usually run Rac's Paraway, which includes the D/N Orders build. Now, she has an awful habit of forgetting she's on passive and she loves to go frontline and ignore my flags. Now, because I run Racway, a minimum of 3/7ths of the rest of the team has higher AL than her, so she's often targeted. In HM areas, if she didn't have constant SY! she'd only be alive between fights. But if she dies, she now has 15% less health, and will die 15% faster/easier, starting her down the slope of DPing out. And every time she dies, she needs to be rezzed, be it midfight or after, and the more she's dead the more she's not putting up her orders and healing.

We're operating in a similar world. My world just takes into account that heros/hench/many players are good at being in the wrong places, and that once someone dies because of bad placement, death becomes more and more likely.